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MBKA's avatar

So many insights, angles I hadn't thought of, and all presented without preaching. I find #9 and #14 particularly astute. On #5 I humbly suggest that flirting has more of playfulness than of marketing. It's how adults play. Like in children's play, it needs call and response, and as in children's play, it probes how far one can go without an upset. Flirting calibrates social interaction. It may have a marketing component - all of life is sales. But I see it as the playful, open palm towards another person.

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shani's avatar

Wow I love this! Play is a wonderful analogy. Thank you :)

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Ralph Gardner's avatar

Play is the key to what flirtation can really provide for others and yourself. I just posted this and absolutely loved your article on observing people: Coming from the heart, it’s delightful way of making a kind, safe connection with another that creates warm smiles and gives them permission to just be themselves. And then the ‘joy-state’ can be reached, even if for only a few moments of laughter. And when we laugh, we breathe deeply which opens us up to our True Self. Think of the practice of ‘Laughter Yoga’

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Cletus Bulach's avatar

It all goes back to authenticity. They flirt in order to find out who you really are? Can they trust you?

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The Old Prospector's avatar

All life forms “play”. It’s at the core of the learning/growing process. It’s why we associate “play” with children, and with artistic creativity, especially music. The songwriter Bob Franke has a line in his song “Thanksgiving Eve”, “let your dreams bind your work to your play”. All creatures “work”, which defines our productive interaction with the larger world. The “business” of childhood is learning, and play is the most fertile and productive of learning of any activity.

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Robin Reese's avatar

It is my experience, being a people watcher myself, that there are two distinctly different types of flirting. One is definitely about marketing! The other version is almost entirely about play. They are so different that it would be nice if there were two separate words. I have seen, too often, that these two different and distinct types of flirting belong to two different and distinct types of people.

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MBKA's avatar

I think the marketing variant is called "game" - it's what pickup artists do. Ironically, "game" is not about playing. It is a goal oriented process using staged emotions. And then there is flirting, playing an infinite game, where you don't play to "win", but to keep on playing.

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Ralph Gardner's avatar

Play is the key to what flirtation can really provide for others and yourself. Coming from the heart, it’s delightful way of making a kind, safe connection with another that creates warm smiles and gives them permission to just be themselves. And then the ‘joy-state’ can be reached, even if for only a few moments of laughter. And when we laugh, we breathe deeply which opens us up to our True Self. Think of the practice of ‘Laughter Yoga’

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Dr Sherry: A Better Timeline's avatar

and some people may be a little of both; we can all be driven by both conscious and unconscious motives. But yes, some people are, sadly, mostly-fake :)

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Kate C's avatar

May be several types of flirting.

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

I hadn’t read your comment when I wrote mine, but I like yours, and Ralph Gardner’s, ways of putting it better

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Deborah Ruf's avatar

I’ve moved into a senior community recently and my playfulness has come out of hiding as I get to know these new and wonderful people in my new community. I’m so spontaneous that I’ve had to learn to tamp myself down, read the room, and make sure no one gets left out of attention when there are more than two in the conversation. I especially loved Shani noticing the beautiful people and how others react. I’ve spent a lot of time people watching, too.

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Peldie's avatar

I love seeing old people flirt with each other! It's so heartwarming. It's the best example of flirting as infinite play because they're simply doing it to enjoy the present and bring joy to others in the present.

The innuendos often don't make much sense to me and I've realised it's probably just that they've lowered the threshold of what can count as a 'naughty' joke to make it easier to dissolve each other into fits of giggles and exclamations of "Oh don't!" and "Gosh you ARE wicked".

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Emily Barnett's avatar

I like your interpretation of flirting as play, I think that’s true! This whole piece was fascinating 😊

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

To me, flirting is the *opposite* of play, as it indicates one WANTS something, sexual attention from a given gender, the idea that one COULD get it from one’s peers, whatever.

Play I feel is more present, more spontaneous, less calculating.

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Liliane Pang's avatar

100% agree with flirting being one way that adults 'play'.

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Victor Barbieri's avatar

I think you are right on #5. Playfulness with a touch of marketing most of the time.

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Cletus Bulach's avatar

It all goes back to authenticity. They flirt in order to find out who you really are? Can they trust you?

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Treladon's avatar

Tbh I don't think I even know what flirting is. How is flirting different from happy conversation?

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MBKA's avatar

Ha. Trying to come up with a definition. Flirting is a game of playful seduction between two agreeable parties without immediate further intent. A love affair in a sandbox.

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Deborah Ruf's avatar

OMG! That's it! As I was trying to describe it, I, too, thought of sandbox play.

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Deborah Ruf's avatar

A happy conversation is quite different, but I'm struggling to describe right now. My father and my mother-in-law, both widowed when my sons graduated or got married, did perfect, non-inuendo flirting with each other with panache. Neither was trying to gain a lover or tryst, for example, but boy oh boy they could play with words. I wish I could have captured for you now. It is different than happy talking or conversations.

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Carrie's avatar

Gosh, I love this! In this instance, I think the flirt may be more about the recipient than the flirter. As if both of these widowed people are just sending out energy to the other, who lost their loved ones, to say "you are still recognized, and seen, and valuable of giving time to". That makes me happy.

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Robin Reese's avatar

OR… as MBKA said so well above, it is marketing, looking for some action as the pursuer who, ideally hopes to lock eyes with someone who returns the look with something “enticing” or inviting. Been around quite a while and have never heard the word “game” to quantify that kind of flirting. But it’s perfect!

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Regina White's avatar

Flirting has a touch or more of sensuality to it. It's easier to sense than to describe. For me as a hetero female, I can have simply happy conversations with men, with some on occasion turning a bit more "exciting", or yes, "playful". This never happens when I'm having happy conversations with women.

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Karthik Bala's avatar

"People have different marketing strategies, but this is always true: there is energy that is snaking outward, trying to find a surface to grip on." -- that is such a good articulation, I can feel what you're saying

For me flirting feels like the other person trying to breaking through the more conventional, more friendly, more light-hearted, more autopilot way of interacting and pull you into a higher-intensity two-person bubble, where the temperature is 10 degrees higher and everything feels slower and more subtle and you can only communicate with your face and eyes and tone

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shani's avatar

very pleased by this description. thank you :)

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Anne Tilson's avatar

What insightful and beautifully written observations. I feel my heart singing upon reading.

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Shelley's avatar

I love your description especially for some of us that find the world too cold and too fast and want to connect with others on a deeper level. Flirting is beautiful when it isn’t a marketing ploy to get something but a give-give.

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Dusti Becker's avatar

and touch

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Elise's avatar

This is such an underrated post I’m so glad I stumbled upon your writing. You are articulate, intuitive, sensitive and generous. Thank you for sharing your pearls of wisdom, I treasure them deeply!

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shani's avatar

This means so much. Thank you Elise ❤️

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Shams Alkamil's avatar

"people who don't pause exist more in their head than their body." fucking brilliant post

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Robert M.'s avatar

Trigger Alert: Is it biased and distorted or not, to wonder whether people who "exist more in their body" are just not as "mentally developed" as people who "exist more in their mind?"

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Alex England's avatar

No, generally people that "exist more in their mind" are overly anxious, overthinkers, can't live in the moment. To inhabit your body is a difficult thing to do, it takes mental clarity first before you can even consider it.

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Robert M.'s avatar

I appreciate your view and I emphasize "IRL living" in. my own life. I workout/hike/dance etc, but I find people who are intellectually engaged--including Yours Truly--are compelled to spend a lot of time reading/writing/thinking, and that means a lot of time sitting at a computer, unless you believe in the treadmill method. This may just be an "Enlightenment" problem . . . people were more engaged with their bodies prior to the Enlightenment. After the Enlightenment--maybe too much reductive binary analysis and pattern matching.

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Regina White's avatar

I think it's biased to to feel either is superior to the other.

With human engagement IRL, which all of these observations are based on, those who exist more easily in the body may have a more fulfilling exchange with those around them. But there are others who can form high quality relationships through writing, sharing mutual passions, heady intellectual one-on-one conversations...

In other words, they may fare better in one-on-one interactions with someone whom they've gotten to trust in ways other than real life interactions, than in a group gathering, where they may withdrawal into themselves by dominating conversations because they simply feel overwhelmed in a group. And where, at least initially, a good amount of small talk is necessary, they may simply feel bored and in need of more mental stimulation.

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Mark Backlund's avatar

I love how your perceptions have arisen so organically, straight out of your experiential observations. As a psychiatrist, now retired after 44 years of practice, I seldom encountered in all the various, much more “codified”, theoretical approaches I encountered, this degree of freshness and “real time” accuracy of what people’s underlying motivations and goals are. I am reminded of the old maxim: “when people show you who they are, believe them”. Yet, your observations go a few steps further and allow for “just having a bad day”, or all the situational aspects that trigger us into a certain posture, vs the more locked in, “this is the way the world IS!” approaches. Thank you for such an insightful frolic and romp!

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shani's avatar

thank you Mark! I appreciate your generous words. You must have a career of rich experiences with people after 44 years. I was considering grad school to become a therapist this year -- ultimately I decided not to go, but close contact with lots of different types of people seems like it would make for a very full and engaging life

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

<bookmark because I want to ask a professional about a couple points in the 21

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Carly Valancy's avatar

This feels so beautiful and cozy. I am reminded why I love substack when I read pieces like this. 🥹

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shani's avatar

thank you so much for reading ❤️

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Elisabeth Andrews's avatar

Spot on: “Polite has a mechanical quality to it, like carrying out all the right movements to replace batteries in a remote. Happy has a boundless quality: unpredictable, even when it is at a low level.”

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

All I have to offer MOST people is ‘polite’

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Troy A. Thompson, M.D.'s avatar

What a thoughtful essay!

As a family doctor, most of my “people watching” occurs in the medical office. It’s naturally a bit forced due to time pressure, medicolegal risk, financial impact on patients (for time spent), and the dead seriousness of pain and disease.

Given all these preconditions, am I “people watching” at all? That is my question.

I’m studying my patients, listening for the said, the unsaid, and the unsayable. I’m painting them meticulously with electronic ink, trying to make sure I’m capturing every wry Mona Lisa smile.

I’m searching for the most important issue in their minds, for that must be addressed, but also exploring the most important problem in my estimation.

My patients are not paying me to tell them what they want to hear, but rather what they need to hear.

I cannot distinguish a mostly-sad person having a happy day from a mostly-happy person on a sad day—not from one visit. Every life carries so much pain. But over thirty years, I learn more.

My patients are people-watching me. Who must I be for them?

I study my patient’s medical chart in great detail. Before knocking on the door and entering the exam room, I ask myself, “Who’s on the other side of that door?”

I usually need to smile, and I want to smile, for it feels good and sets a pleasant tone. I love my patients and they need good cheer, but often I must not smile: their circumstance is too severe.

Patients need to see confidence and competence, delivered with compassion.

To conclude, I live in a medical theater, people watching and being watched all day long.

I interrupt people, though I wish I didn’t have to. I confront when I don’t always want to. I force myself to doubt both my patient and myself, lest I miss a life-threatening disease. I always hope for the best, but always consider the worst.

Perhaps I’m not “people watching” after all, certainly not freely. In the office, I am not me, and my patients are not themselves.

Instead, we’re passionate actors on a stage, living with pain and dying, sometimes on the stage itself, but mostly behind the curtain.

TAT

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Shelley's avatar

Thank you for sharing your side of the medical experience. And being so thoughtful in your profession. Who knows, perhaps my doctors also struggle with these thoughts and I have no idea because they have to present in the head versus heart way more and more these days.

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Austin Kerr's avatar

On behalf of patients, I want to say that we love you too.

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Troy A. Thompson, M.D.'s avatar

That’s really kind! Thank you.

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Peldie's avatar

This is beautiful. The world needs doctors like you.

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Lucy's avatar

Wow. So well said. After this post I felt quite sad and a little like my heart was in my throat. Your response has made me feel human again.

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Candace Hamm's avatar

I rather love this :) My neurodivergent brain tends to see, read, and be overwhelmed because I cannot turn this aspect of me off, and so often people’s narratives of what they want you to think are so different from who/what they actually are. I tend to feel antagonistic about reading people. Your writing feels more curious, and it’s quite lovely!

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Robin Reese's avatar

I agree. Your words go directly to the core of feeling.

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Ariel A's avatar

Beautifully written and with many powerful insights. Thank you. But perhaps these insights deserve an asterisk for neurodivergence, and even for more ordinary introversion? I have known some lovely souls whose affect - especially in large gatherings - led me to badly misjudge them, at first, until I got to know them. As an introvert myself, I know I have been misunderstood… Some find such settings a sort of torture, leading to closed behaviors of various sorts, not because they are actually closed to others but because their different wiring compromises their ability to connect in crowds, requiring that they try to “mask” - which is not always successful, and exhausting even when it is.

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Troy A. Thompson, M.D.'s avatar

Thank you, Ariel. I’m carefully considering what you have said.

One person’s reflection on asterisks, a simple musing, and by no means the final word—

Most people seem complex to me in their own ways. All people can be misunderstood. The simplest of communications can fail, through no one’s fault, and despite the utmost care, with grave consequences. How many are my illustrations!

Medically speaking, now that my patients are all thirty years older than when I first met them, just about everyone I see has five-to-ten major problems, such as a history of strokes, cancers, heart failure, bipolar disorder, diabetes, and PTSD.

Introversion is one issue that complicates communication, and if trust can’t be built, or some form of regular contact made between doctor and patient, it can be life threatening. Delayed diagnosis and delayed treatment happen too often among my patients with profound introversion. Hopefully I build enough trust over time and learn to bridge that divide. Telehealth encounters sometimes help overcome the barriers.

The question seems to be not who needs an asterisk—since we all need one—but who needs two? Or to say it the other way around, some people need two asterisks, but all could benefit from one.

To illustrate, of my five adult children, three are internationally adopted. All of them have tactile issues and an extra set of complex questions (about their origins, their value) compared with my two naturally-born children. Their problems are substantial and frequently ICU-level life threatening. Of my three adopted kids, only one technically has “special needs,” cerebral palsy. She will need lifetime care for ambulating, feeding, bowel management, bathing, etc. She requires significantly more hours of care each day than the rest—though she’s not the one at continuous risk of self-harm.

The child with CP merits two asterisks. But all the others deserve at least one.

I agree with your general idea, but I suppose I consider each of my kids (and perhaps half of my patients) to be neurodivergent in their own ways. I wish I had five manuals to understand my kids, but I have zero. My five children came from eight different biological parents on three separate continents and from three different languages. I could use multiple asterisks!

TAT

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

Thank you!

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Heather Stark's avatar

well observed and well written. one addition. if flirting is one sided, like a mailshot, it's marketing. that's flirting AT. but if there is mutuality, that's flirting WITH. which is a whole different kind of energy, and fun to watch. and do.

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shani's avatar

yes! i really like the nuance you offer here. unreciprocated flirting feels more like marketing, but mutual flirting feels like a satisfying game of ping pong

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James S.  Wilkerson's avatar

Seen “The Imitation Game “?

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Butternut Saskatoon's avatar

Nice observation!

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Kathie L Callahan's avatar

Exactly! Marketing 101 (a 1980ish college freshman course flashback) Pull or push. A playful game of the heart and mind.

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Ken Donner's avatar

THE FLIRT

It's ever so delirious,

Enticing and mysterious,

Not knowing who is serious,

Or which one has the nerve,

It's a dangerous position,

Two bodies headed for collision,

Each one making a decision,

Will they go forward? Or will they swerve?

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shani's avatar

yay ❤️

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manuel de los rios's avatar

Nailed it! That delicate balance of opposing emotional forces. Not certain of the final outcome, but giving your all while the game is played. Flirting is life .

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MarkC's avatar

I enjoyed this article and appreciated, agreed with and resonated with many of the insights you shared. I wonder, though, how it is you are so certain of your intuitions? One cannot know for certain the totality of the inner mechanisms of the other when in conversation with him or her, or when merely observing him or her. In addition, people behave differently in different situations, sometimes for the most trivial reasons - being exhausted could make it harder for someone to pay attention to a conversation, a demeanor that could present as being bored, when that same person, well-rested, would engage in the same conversation with much more attention and enthuisiam. I try always to be open to the possibility - perhaps even likelihood - that I am not 100% correct in my perceptions and intuitions, instead of seeking confirmation of my conclusions. It can be quite enjoyable to be proven wrong, as we have just learned something new! The world is full of surprises, and humans are perhaps the most surprising of all.

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shani's avatar

being open to being surprised is a beautiful way to live. And there is no certainty in anything here: most of these observations are skating the surface of a person, anchored in the way they move/speak/interact over a few hours, during one evening of their life. There are subterranean layers I am missing (that we only get to know after knowing someone for a while) that would make for a more generous picture. it is still fun to imagine though :)

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Ha Tran Nguyen Phuong's avatar

> The easiest way to say this: there is no script for happy. It tumbles out of the body.

I love this phrase "tumbling out of the body", it is such an apt description of joy!!

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Robert Anderson's avatar

I like de Bouton's definition of flirting best: "Good flirting is an attempt driven by kindness and imaginative excitement to inspire another person to believe more firmly in their own likability."

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Universal Zeitgeist's avatar

De Botton! How he marries the loftiness of his intellect with a down to earth-iness is such a miracle

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Treladon's avatar

I think I'll be coming back to this article a few times more...

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